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PHOTO 146 - 151 Comments
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Anyone looking for exile can come live with me in Spain. I ain't got a-lot of room, but the eatin's good.
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It's true: we are fucked. I am so depressed right now. I don't know what to do. I simply cannot believe I live in this country, or more specifically, that the country has gotten to this point. People have been completely lead by fearmongering and religious hatemongering masquerading as "values" -- ah fuck it, I've said it all before.
The US is going to have a hell of a time recovering from the damage that the next four years will bring. Mark my words.
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What the hell happened? I leave the country for a few months and this shit happens! I thought I left things in good hands.
Seriously, this really sucks. This is not just bad for America, it is bad for the world. I am constantly being asked 'how come Americans voted Bush back in'. From their point of view, we are frickin nuts.
On a lighter note...... BigFatty made French news on election night. A group of Americans went over to the School's director's house. We watched some of the election results. A local French news channel sent a crew out to cover the story. We BS'd for the camera some, but they really wanted a shot of all of us toasting the election with wine - always the french! Anyways, I hope to see what footage they used tonight. Maybe I can get a copy.
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We ARE nuts! These are not my people. I have nothing in common with the dipshit southerners who voted for W based on "terrorism" (as if they have evidence that Bush isn't fucking up the show more than Kerry would) and "values", zero of which I share.
Do you guys realize that gay marriage has been banned in all 11 states (including yours) that put it on the ballot? The majority of people in this country are bigots, plain and simple. Religion-sanctioned bigots. They're basing government policy on a 2000+ year-old text written by people who thought the earth was flat, for crying out loud!
Reason apparently plays no role in most people's political decisions.
I just don't understand how the Republican party slipped so far to the right since Bush was "elected" in 2000. Now that their Senate majority is INCREASED, and they have the majority in the House as well, NOT TO MENTION the fact that Chief Justice Rhenquist isn't coming back to the Supreme Court, you're going to see the COMPLETE EROSION of our governmental system of checks and balances. Now the Republicans are essentially free to pass whatever nutball legislation they see fit. Bye bye abortion! Science? Well, not if it disagrees with us! Oh, and porn: Ashcroft has his god-fearing eye on that one fellas. Roche's computer will be gathering dust even quicker. Also look forward the flag-burning amendment getting rammed through Congress soon, too - in making it illegal to burn the flag, it will effectively set the Constitution aflame as a byproduct. Perhaps that's a fair trade to most Americans.
Our tax dollars, meanwhile, are being funneled into churches' hands, completely flouting the first amendment which prohibits this, and guess what? Again, the majority thinks this is all peachy.
Well I've got news for all the people that think that majority rule = democracy. It doesn't. It's called Tryanny of the Majority, and it's why the founding fathers created a Bill of Rights in the first place, to protect against this very kind of mob rule. Go ahead and guess if most Americans care about or even understand that concept.
I have had it. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm going to do something. As a guy in my office said, "it's time to organize."
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Bert, you're echoing my sentiments exactly... it's so sad that the gay marriage amendments weren't even CLOSE in 10 of the 11 states. I have to agree with what Kerry said a few days ago, that Bush is going to set this country back 30 years - more like 300. Backwards thinking rules in this stupid country.
Actually, I just got word that Kerry has officially conceded the race. FUCK. I was sure this would be dragged out for weeks, and every vote would be re-counted and lawyers would all be in a froth... which maybe Kerry should have done. Or is he taking the "high road" by not fighting like a sore loser, like Bush did four years ago?
Fuck, who knows. It's a dark day in American history.
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The gay marriage thing, by the way, is a good example of why this referendum/proposition-based voting thing is dumb. Isn't this why we have elected representatives in the first place? I'm sorry to have to say it this way, but people are, by and large, too ignorant to settle these kinds of issues by directly voting on them. At this point I'm not even sure they're not too ignorant to vote for their representatives. Any confidence I had in government has been obliterated.
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Well, the gay marriage vote - which took place in a few swing states - prompted high turnout from conservative Christians, who apparently thought, while they're at the polls, they might as well vote for Bush. I think that's one of the keys to the election. Problem is, what happened to letting majority rule while still respecting the rights of the minority? In this case, the minority's rights are being trampled - the way the Michigan marriage proposal was worded implicates that companies giving gay couples benefits can legally take them away, in effect REMOVING rights, not just limiting them.
Oh, and I was perusing the local list of uncontested races for representative, and a good 90% of them were Republican. How the hell does this happen? It makes this week's Onion headline grotesquely true: "U.S. Inspires World with Attempt at Democratic Election," although I'm not certain it's much of an attempt at all, or inspiring anybody.
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It's because of gerrymandering. The representatives are allowed to draw up the districts (almost) any way they see fit, in order to basically ensure victory. Basically, if they see a set of towns or general areas that are aligned with them, they bargain to be on the ticket in those areas, and likewise give up the areas filled with constituents who don't share their ideals.
It's kind of like a very dirty version of the electoral college. It's the very first thing I'd reform about elections if I had my way.
Oh, and: FUCKERS!
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Got 18 as well, I'm a 1st Amendment scholar. I missed 8, 14, and 16.
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Holy shit - that's damn good Bone, if I do say so myself. I only scored that high because I got lucky, for the most part. Half of my correct ones were just educated guesses, and I did get burned on a couple of tricks (In God we Trust on money, for example). 8, 11, and 19 were wrong for me.
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I owe my Constitutional knowledge to you Bert. Those links you posted in the past on seperation between church and state did not go unread. I did make educated guesses on a few though.
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17 for me.
I just had a delivery from a distributor in Chicago and we got to talking about the election. He's hispanic and voted for Bush. I asked him why and he said for moral reasons and that he's a religious man. He mentioned abortion, gay marriage (he's against it, even though he has "several gay friends."), and the war on Iraq ("we have to protect ourselves") as some of his reasons. He said most of his family and friends voted Kerry. He was mad at people that didn't like Bush because they're not informed (!!).
I don't get it. I just don't see the whole "Bush is a moral man" thing and know no one else on here does either.
Why is abortion wrong ("sanctity of life" and all that) but the death penalty and killing Iraqies (100,000 was a recent estimate... holy SHIT!) right?
Please don't blame religion, because that's not (entirely) it. I'm pretty sure when Jesus said "love thy enemy" he meant don't kill them. Oh well. Just dumb people I guess.
We'll get through this kids.
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But religion IS largely to blame. For every "love thy enemy" there's ten "eye for an eye"s. You are free to pick and choose to justify your actions. And this is not even just old testament vs new: even Jesus advocated the death penalty (to take one example in Luke 19:27 Jesus says, "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.") Though I'm not sure where he (or anyone else) said abortion is wrong... as I said to another friend today, the Bible is quite pro-killing. So I'm not sure why abortion is a religious issue.
No, Bush is moral only if you define your morals not in terms of reason, or even the Bible (too many selective interpretations), but on the rantings of contemporary clergymen. Currently they don't like abortion for some reason, who knows why. So Bush doesn't. So he's moral. Never mind that at the end of the day these people are moral because they fear the cosmic spanking after they die, whereas atheists like myself, while incapable of morality according to godidiots, act according to moral rules based on our own derived systems, which happen to look a lot like most reasonable people's rules, and we fear no afterlife repercussions. Who is more moral - the child who obeys what daddy says so he can get dessert or the man who obeys the rules because he thinks it's the right thing to do and actually derived some of these rules himself? Which camp do you think Bush fits into? Actually neither, if you ask me - he pays lip service to the former, while violating the shit out of it in deed. Of course Americans are too busy being scared of terrorism to notice.
Like your customer said, we have to protect ourselves from those Iraqis.... those people have fucked with us.... um.... NEVER. (credit to David Cross for that one)
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I need a place to bitch about the current state of our country, and what better place than this forum? As our President's campaign rally organizers can attest to, your message will be far better received when given to those who already agree with you in the first place.
There are several things about the turn of events in the last 24 hours that bother me much more than just the fact that "the guy that I wanted to win, lost". Not to say that that doesn't suck, but hell, I'm a liberal living in Grand Rapids, so I am used to it.
The first thing that is really bothering me about this election is the fact that exit polls show that the BIGGEST factor in people's decision was "moral values". More people sited "moral values" as their key issue in this election. More important than the economy, Iraq, health care, social security, poverty, Bush's inability to do anything right... the most important thing to them was "moral values".
Now, as Ross so eloquently stated in a previous message, morals are arbitrary (at least to Bush). So what they really wanted to say, but it must not have been on the multiple choice list of key issues, was "Bush and me are god-fearing, born-again, righteous motherfuckers". So when considering their candidate for President, it was of no concern that their choice led this country into a bullshit war, that their choice doesn't know the difference between Sweden and Switzerland, that their choice is such a poor leader that he can't take responsibility for anything going wrong.... it was that their choice, W, is a born-again Christian. That their choice was chosen by God at this time to lead this country. What the fuck?
Now I know there are millions of people who voted for Bush that are nothing like what I just described. And that is almost as much of a concern. That there are people who actually thought about their choice, as opposed to praying for it, and still came to the conclusion that this country would be better off with Bush as the President. But for some reason that doesn't bother me quite as much. At least the person who thought it through might be able to make an argument in favor of their candidate... as opposed to ?Bush is a man of faith? and ?we've got to stay the course?.
Every time I heard on the radio, or read in the paper, that ?moral values? was the biggest issue in choosing the president, I feel like I just got punched in the stomach. Can that really be the most imporant thing?
The second thing that really makes me feel shitty about this country right now is that all 11 gay marriage amendments passed. And by a very sizable margin in almost every state. A majority of voters in 11 states strongly felt that it was necessary to write discrimination into their state's constitution. Something that in no way will affect their day to day lives, was so abhorrent to these people, that the fact that it was against the law was not good enough. It had to be written into the constitution. The bartender in Star Wars should be their spokesman: ?We don't serve their kind here.?
It just doesn't make sense to me. There is no good reason to be opposed to gay marriage. I wrote a letter to the Grand Rapids press earlier this year stating that I had yet to hear a valid argument against gay marriage that did not invoke the Bible. And I still haven't (although after I wrote that letter som guy did call me, and then he dropped off a packet of videos and pamphlets at my house, discussing the ?gay agenda?). If someone's religion states that you, as a man, should not lay with another man, fine. Don't. Your religion, your rules.
Anyway, I have ranted long enough. I feel better now. And on the bright side of all of this nonsense... at least the Daily Show is going to be hilarious for another 4 years.
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I torture myself sometimes by listening to conservative radio shows. I probably shouldn't have today since I was feeling pretty shitty about the damn thing. First thing I heard was a caller talking about Bush's good Christian morals being the #1 reason he voted for Bush. Apparently, according to the caller who was from Grand Rapids I might add, if you have good Christian values everything else will fall into line. I'm still at a loss to how badly that comment unhinged my faith in America since it seems to be a very popular opinion in this election.
Well on the way to being one of the shittier days in recent memory, I had to be surrounded by gleeful assholes happy about the outcome. Seems like every single asshole in the military supports any candidate who happens to be a Republican. These same assholes are always complaining about having to go on 6 month deployments and all the other hardships associated with the military. Can't wait for these fuckers to complain the next time we are out sitting on the deck of an aircraft carrie,r baking in the hot Arabian sun for an unusually long deployment, brought on by Bush's debacle in Iraq. I'm going to fuck someone up.
TallPat, I enjoyed your rant. Who the hell are you?
By the way Swerb, looks like a set back for your plan to move to Canada.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=189
6&ncid=1896&e=5&u=/nm/20041103/us_nm/election_cana
da_haven_dc_1
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TP is my buddy from high school. Swerb, Roche, and Fatty have met him at various times in the past, though I don't think your particular paths have crossed. Anyway, I'll have more to say tomorrow I'm sure but I'm exhausted so I'm going to go cry myself to sleep...
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It's nice to see Pate joining in the discourse. You should become a regular Jackassarian!
And you know, Jack, religion dictates a lot of what Bush does, be it personally or with public policy. He's the first to admit it. Read the article I posted a few days ago (here's the link again: http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/101704A.shtml ) and you'll learn that he doesn't trust external reality as much as he trusts his gut instincts - not a great thing to do when you have the job of representing millions of Americans - and it all stems from his deep personal faith in God. If he piles up the deficit and kills countless Iraqis (in the neighborhood of 100,000, according to one article I read), that's OK, because it's obviously God's will. Whatever happens, it's God's will - lose the election, win the election, it's all God's fucking will. It's a complete bullshit argument that deserves to be shot down like a lame fucking duck. There's nothing reasonable about it.
You know, this is an argument that was fought hundreds of years ago, when scientists were duking it out to gain credibility amongst millions of eye-for-an-eye people, all of whom were poking each other's ocular orifices out until they were totally blind to what was in front of them. And I can't help but think: Why the fuck are we even HAVING this argument in the year 2004? Because of religion. And it's more prevalent now that we have a Christian zealot in the White House for four more years. I joked today that, come January 1, we're not going to call it 2005, but rather 1945, because that's the way people are thinking nowadays. Not allowing gays to get married? Might as well put them on the back of the bus, and have "gay only" drinking fountains. If it wasn't for religious fervor, the gay-rights issue wouldn't even exist. Look at some of the European countries like Holland and Sweden - a more clear separation of church and state, and more gay people have the same rights of any heterosexual citizen. It's DIRECTLY correlated. I almost wholly blame religion for the results of this year's election.
Y'know, Bert, remember when we used to like Dennis Miller? Have you watched his show on CNBC lately? He's transformed into a Republican asshole. I turned on his show tonight to see what he had to say in the election aftermath, and he gloated like a two-year-old that his man won, and how great it is that there are more Republicans in Congress now. What the fuck? And then, he has the balls to say, "No matter what side of the fence you're on, you can wake up in the morning and have the freedom to do whatever you want." Obviously, he didn't notice that gay people don't have the right to do whatever they want in 11 states now. And get this - of all the guests on his show (he has like six a night), none of them called him on that statement. He used to say, "I don't care if you need a duckbill platypus to get off, just don't ask me to borrow my platypus." Apparently, he thinks the platypus people no longer deserve any civil rights. Fuck that guy. I'd use his books to wipe my ass, if I wouldn't be denigrating my ass to do so.
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I guess I'm understanding more why people voted as they did. What people call "moral values" I call "religious beliefs". To me, the important moral values of a president include integrity, honesty, fiscal responsibility, social justice, environmental stewardship, etc. I don't see this with Bush, and thus my confusion when people say they voted for Bush for "moral reasons."
What Bush supporters mean by "moral reasons" are really non-issues with me: abortion, gay marriage, banning any number of things, etc. Things I feel the government really has no business getting involved in.
Sorry, if this is all obvious to y'all... I'm learning... :)
Swerb - I know what you're saying regarding Dennis Miller. I used to like him a lot, but noticed he was leaning more right years ago on his HBO show. I haven't seen him since then.
Does anyone watch Tough Crowd after the Daily Show? It's kind of Politically Incorrect without the insight (it's all comedians). I find it entertaining for all the comedic grab-ass that goes on (but I think this is its final week on the air). Anyways, someone on there last night mentioned that the red states controlling the election is basically revenge for the blue states controlling TV. I thought that was kinda funny.
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You're pretty much on the same page as me now, Jack. The problem with many Bush voters is that they are unable to divorce morality from religion. I've already ranted ad infinitum about why this is crazy. But as crazy as it is, they are brought up from day one to believe it and many people go to their graves believing it, never having thought it through themselves, presumably for fear of pissing off their capricious diety who actually gives a shit about what they're thinking from moment to moment.
The fact that Bush says he is a religious man (my mom refuses to believe that he actually is but I have repeatedly explained to her that what he believes is irrelevant, it's what he says and how he acts that matters) is more important to religious people than how he behaves. A guy in my office had it right, I'm coming to realize after listening to the pundits over the past day, in that Bill Clinton did this to us. Now all the goddies think that Democrats are immoral because Clinton got his cark sarked in the Oval Office. So it doesn't matter if Bush gets 1000+ of our soldiers killed, and kills 100 times more Iraqi civilians, and costs us billions and billions of dollars in the process, if it's couched in biblical language (anyone got a count on the number of times he's used "crusade"?) he's giving the appearance of morality to these buffoons.
And as far as the gay marriage thing goes, it does seem that the fact it was on the ballot in so many places helped Bush. I just dont' get it - the biblical basis for discriminating against gays is in Leviticus - a terrifying look into just how fucked up the old testament is. In that book, there are numerous offenses for which people should be put to death that even these religious nuts wouldn't advocate! It also says you shouldn't eat shellfish or wear clothes made out of more than one type of thing. Menstruating women are "unclean" and there are countless rules telling you how to treat them at various times in their cycle. Why are these rules disregarded but the gay thing singled out and harped on? Isn't it clear that this rules is sandwiched in the middle of numerous barbaric others, that it was written by people who were complete ignoramuses?
Alright, I have to get back to work. More later.
Fuck the Republicans! Fuck them right in the ear hole!
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Exactly. That should be the headline of the day in every newspaper. Moral values = Religious beliefs. You can't make it any simpler, or more obvious than that.
And it is exactly what bothers me so much about this election. Now I don't care that people want to vote for someone who shares their religious beliefs... but the fact that it is the most important issue to them is... well, scary.
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This is a somewhat interesting interview:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features
/richard-denton.shtml
This part particularly:
BBC Four: Were you surprised to find the first American presidents were so sceptical about religion?
RD: I was incredibly struck by their quotations - these guys wouldn't even get considered as candidates if they said anything like that now. And I was depressed by that because it made me feel that we have not made a great deal of progress since the Age of Enlightenment. If anything, we're going backwards at the moment.
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Ross, I see that when you say "I have to get back to work" you mean "I have to get back to browsing the web."
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Yeah, well, I decided I was too riled up. :)
Anyway, what's interesting about your comments is that this group I belong to, "The Brights" - which is a terrible name for atheists/secular humanists/freethinkers, have decided (much prior to the election) to tackle the misconception that morality is necessarily entangled with religion.
From their last newsletter:
As stated in Bulletin 17, the pressing priority for Brights'
action is this: confronting - straight on - the widespread
public belief that a person who holds a naturalistic worldview
lacks morals.
Persons who have a naturalistic worldview are perpetually
"up against" the false but widely held cultural presumption
that they, because of their worldview, lack certain requisites
to be moral persons. This presupposition by others is an
encumbrance that crops up again and again. In the Brights'
poll, it appears to be the single most significant hindrance to
public disclosure that one has a naturalistic worldview. Brights
must address this "morality problem" head on--with zest, and
with profundity.
There's a bunch more, but it seems it was too little, too late. Regardless, I see the need for this kind of thing more than ever now. It's the only hope this country has of breaking its archaic superstitions.
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Perhaps it was not a case of too little too late, but the fact that a troubling number of Americans would interpret addressing something "with zest, and with profundity" as meaning to wash it with soap and to swear at it.
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Hahahaha, good point. Hopefully that memo stays internal and we can use the common vernacular in public.
One blog I regularly read has posted a bunch of Mark Twain quotes. This is a great one that sums up my current feelings:
In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.
- Autobiography of Mark Twain
If you want to read more:
http://www.turnspit.com/archives/week_2004_10_31.ph
p
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Hey, I just learned that Yasser Arafat kicked off and Bush's response was: "God bless his soul." ARRRGHHGHGHGGG!!!!!!
Also, if you haven't looked at today's updated version of The Onion, do so:
www.theonion.com
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According to CNN, he ain't dead yet. So may Satan cause his soul more pain in the here and now.
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Of course, Bush is so far gone, he'll appoint Jesus as the next attorney general. One heartening thing I read in the paper today is that even some Republicans aren't going to let Bush appoint ultra-conservative judges to the Supreme Court, in case he decides to try to overturn Roe vs. Wade. I'm trying to latch onto any kernel of reason I can, here...
And yeah, we get these bulletins scrolling across the top of our screens at work - the first one said Arafat was dead, the second one was Bush's blessing of his soul, and the third one was that the reports of his death were false. That's what happens when we trust the media for information.
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That article Ross linked to seems to imply that a good chunk of Bush's cabinet is going to be replaced. Rice, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft.....
He couldn't possibly get any worse with new appointments, could he? The momentary hope I got while reading that article is strangely familiar to the sense of hope I feel every August as the Detroit Lions prepare to kickoff a new football season. Maybe, just maybe...
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You are very hard pressed to do worse than Ashcroft. Rice, I could live with. Rumsfeld, while an asshole, had redeaming qualities. Ashcroft on the other hand is unacceptable because he makes Bush look like an Satan worshipper. If Ashcroft had his way, he would burn all non-Christians at the stake using science books as fuel for the fire. If Bush manages to appoint someone worse than Ashcroft I will definately be joining Creeko in Spain.
By the way, I joined the ACLU simply because one of their goals is to seperate church and state. They are a little further left on some issues than I am but since the country has got the rudder hard over to the right it's going to take a big correction to the left to get it back to center.
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If your goal is separation of church and state, I also suggest Americans United for the Separation of Church and State:
www.au.org
Also I'm joining the Freedom From Religion Foundation:
www.ffrf.org
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The quote of the day belongs to Lewis Black... he started his segment on The Daily Show by saying, "Yesterday, the voice of the people was heard. I won't imitate it here out of respect for the mentally retarded."
I'm also considering joining ffrf.org... they're sending me a free copy of their publication.
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Following Bone's lead, I just joined the ACLU, and also my own lead and joined the Freedom From Religion Foundation.
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I have not read the whole article on Slate yet, but when I read this line I wanted to comment:
"Well, almost 58 million?my relatives are not ignorant, they are just greedy and full of classic Republican feelings of superiority."
So there are now two kinds of Republicans, the "Classic Republican" and the newer, stranger version, the "Ignorant Republican". Good terms to know for future discussions....
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TallPat, if you plan on hanging aroung Jackassery - what do you say we get you an Avatar? Bert, got anything you can work with?
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Here's a nice pic in the same vein as the one at the top, except it's actually real:
Fatty is clearly not exaggerating about US perception abroad.
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I might, Bone - mostly from our junior high days, and not very flattering, to boot. :)
I'll see what I can find, unless you want to mail me a pic, Te.
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I guess I'm not the only one to have thought about joining the ACLU. Within 24 hrs of the election they had their greatest surge of online donations.
At least there is a movement to keep America free.
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Well, I just followed y'all's lead, and joined Americans United and FFRF. What can I say, I'm a joiner, not a divider.
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I've been hearing on the radio and through rumors on the internets that the Democrats are planning to restructure their message with religion being at the forefront. It farkin depresses me that it will likely end up being a battle between who can out christian each other. This spells bad news for the country.
Also, an article on the Drudge report talks about Marines attending service before battle. It solidifies my notion that more and more Americans view the war on terror as a war between Christianity and Islam. I'm certian you could go walk down to the localWaffle House in Hicksville Alabama and ask the patrons what they think needs to be done about the muslim situation. They'd likely support killin them all!
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4.htm
- "The marines drew parallels from the verse with their present situation, where they perceive themselves as warriors fighting barbaric men opposed to all that is good in the world.
"Victory belongs to the Lord," another young marine read."
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I've heard that about the Dems as well, and even thought they would do that in response to this election, I just don't see how they can avoid it giving that the most important thing to them is winning elections in the short term. Yes, it seems I have to pretty much ignore the policitical parties for a while and when election time comes, just vote for the least bad one (this is nothing new, really). But the real mission here is to get people to think critically, to question religion, and to doubt. This won't be done by the politicians, it can only be done by us.
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I don't know if anybody here watches Real Time with Bill Maher on HBO or not, but, on a lark, I caught the latest episode (from Friday night)... anyway, you all should try to watch it, because it's fascinating. Maher is a pro-reason, anti-religion guy, and he conducted some really intriguing conversations on the show. I'm sure it'll be rerun on HBO a lot, so set your Tivos or track it down online. I think I'm going to watch the show more in the future...
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I cancelled HBO but I am a marginal Maher fan. He's often been too lefty for me in the past but these days he makes more sense to me. I read recent interviews with him and he sounds like his views on religion are similar to mine.
I also hated that whole media blowup over him saying that the 9/11 terrorist weren't cowards. They weren't! They were crazy religious, that's all they were. But they weren't cowards. And the nation vilified him for stating the obvious. Damn this country sucks.
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The GR Press has two articles today on several recent "scientific " studies regarding the medical benefits of prayer. Apparently a couple of these studies (some of which have been funded by federal money ($2.3 million over the last four years) have shown that people who are being prayed for recovered quicker, died less, etc., etc.
The article points out that even those who believe in the healing power of prayer say that trying to do a scientific study on it is a waste of time and money. No kidding.
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Here's my (current) take on the scientific effect of prayer: on the one hand, us freethinker-types realize that there's not a snowball's chance in hell of anyone running a good study showing a measurable effect of prayer. On the other hand, it's very nearly a valid scientific question. On the OTHER other hand, there could also be a copper teapot in orbit around planet Pluto, but we're not funding a scientific study to figure that one out.
The bottom line is, lots of people believe it, and all studies are not likely to confirm it, yet that won't sway people either way anyway, like Pat said, it's totally pointless.
But I guess I don't mind a modicum of money going to studies just so people will shut up about it. The problem is, all such studies in the past have been severely flawed and claim to point to some kind of unknown effect. It'll never end - I don't know if we should fund it or not.
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I didn't read the article, but I think at the core of the study is whether someone can improve their health through psychological means - you know, think positive, wear rose-colored glasses and the world doesn't look so bad. BUT, I don't agree that federal money should fund it; aren't there more worthwhile studies to be done? Like finding a cure for cancer - or some other ailment - that's based in reality?
Another interesting article that was in the Press Friday (I can't find it online - worthless fucking website) said that a state law slipped through this week requiring all schools, K-12, to recite the Pledge of Allegiance once a day. A state fucking law! Even if it didn't have "under God" in it, that's some serious state-mandated brainwashing. I don't know how I feel about it.
Bert, I can't wait to hear your thoughts on the Bill Maher show, because it raised so many meaty arguments, it made my head spin. But some of them apply to what we've been saying all week in this forum...
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The show is fucking sweet. Right off the bat, the interview with the (fairly liberal) republican senator from Wyoming raised a great point. The guy took offense to Maher even MENTIONING the term Christian Right as if he disdained them so much as people. He said something to the effect of "why don't you attack the ideas, not the person?" and Maher answered perfectly "it's hard, because you are the sum of your ideas."
The conservative gay guy was interesting: although he annoyed the shit out of me, I agreed with many of the things he had to say. He pushed Maher really hard about Noam Chomsky (who he's right, is a complete fucktard) and Maher had a weak rebuttal. I didn't agree with him that we shouldn't alienate the crazy christians, though. While I agree that you shouldn't resort to attacks on their character directly, it's hard not to indirectly by making fun of what they believe, as I said above.
Maher said it best at the end, though: "Liberals, stop threatening to move because of the election. Bush is the reason you have to stay."
As for the Pledge, that is dispicable. "Under god" or not, it should not be required to make anyone speak a patriotic oath, ever, except perhaps when in direct service to your country. Children are clearly not, nor are most of them even capable of understanding what they are being asked to pledge. No, the only thing this accomplishes is ingraining a brainless bit of nationalism into a person's brain.
Besides, why would I pledge allegiance to a fucking flag anyway (yes I know it says "and to the Republic for which it stands" but why not start with that, assholes?)
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Thanks to some information that was linked to from this very thread, I wrote a letter to the editor of the GR Press just now. I would love to link to the article it refers to, but as Swerb pointed out, worthless fucking website. Anyway there was an article in the paper today about how morality played a big part in the election. The following two paragraphs are from the article:
Though the practice of endorsing candidates
is frowned on in most churches, Yerke confesses
he couldn't restrain himself the Sunday before
the election.
He said he told his congregation: "As far as I
can see, you should vote for President Bush."
Thanks to some links from this thread, and an interview I heard on NPR last night, I am fully aware that it is against the law for a tax-exempt organization, like a church, to endorse a candidate for public office. I was just disgusted that the article failed to point that out. So just in case my letter does not get printed in the paper I am submitting it here, so at least someone besides myself can read it. :-)
An article in today's paper ("Morality a factor",
Press, Nov. 7) stated that Rev. Jim Yerke of
Jamestown Baptist Church told his congregation,
in a sermon the Sunday before the election, that
"you should vote for President Bush." The article
also pointed out "the practice of endorsing candidates
is frowned on in most churches." Perhaps most
churches frown on the practice because it is against
US tax laws. It was irresponsible of the Press to not
point out that the Reverend was placing his church's
tax-exempt status in jeopardy by endorsing a political
candidate from the pulpit.
The IRS Tax Guide for Churches and Religious
Organizations states that "All IRC section 501(c)(3)
organizations, including churches and religious
organizations, must abide by certain rules... they must
not participate in, or intervene in, any political campaign
on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public
office."
The fact that a church leader endorsed a
presidential candidate is not surprising. I am sure it
happened in countless churches across the country
prior to the election. But to have the Press report that
such activities are just "frowned on", without also
pointing out that it is against the law, is just bad journalism.
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Fuck yes! Thanks, Pat, for writing the letter, because, as a Press employee, I couldn't. There are plenty of reasons to be disgusted by the article.
I did find a link to the article (I know how to navigate the website because I have to):
http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/n
ews-1/1099827351292760.xml
Fucking appalling, isn't it? There's no balance to it at all - there's no mention about how such action might violate the Constitution! I mean, the headline reads, "Church meets state in West Michigan"!
Another thing that pissed me off the most is how the right-wing church article gets page A1, while two relatively meager wire stories (with no local ties at all) about people concerned about civil liberties and the violation of church/state separation got buried on page 6 of the Perspective section. There's some clear bias here.
This makes me wonder if we can send this article to the ACLU or somebody, and get that minister's ass nailed to the wall. How gratifiying would THAT be?
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Oh, and Bert: If that one episode is any indication, I think Maher is a (semi-obnoxious) voice of reason more often than not. And while I think the Daily Mirror cover is funny, I'm glad he essentially said "Who the fuck cares what Europeans think?" And he also made a terrific point about how "secular" people have morals just like religious people.
But yeah, I think what I gleaned from the show is to not be reactionary. My first inkling after the election was to start mowing down any Christian in my path, which isn't a very reasonable response. But I had a very reassuring conversation with a co-worker (who I have a lot of respect for, incidentally) on Friday who voted for Kerry and hates Bush - but he is also a self-described evangelical Christian. He said Bush lacks the intellectual capacity to really, truly be an "evangelical Christian," and that those who went out and voted for him and against the gay marriage proposal make every other Christian look bad. Interesting.
Which brings me to this point: I may think Christians are wasting their time believing that, essentially, a fiction is the unassailable truth, but I'm still willing to live next door to them, and even be friends with them, but just respectfully disagree. It's tempting to make fun of them (and I will to a degree, because I can't help thinking religion is absurd; Bill Maher does it because he's a comedian, and that's what he's SUPPOSED to do), but accepting our differences is the most patriotic thing I can do right now. The evangelical Christians voting against gay marriage certainly aren't doing that, but they'll claim to be more patriotic than most.
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Pat, that is sweet. Question though: how many newspapers do you think print articles in which the letter-writers accuse (even justifiably, in your case) their journalists of bad journalism? I'm not saying this because I think they won't publish it, I just don't know. I really hope they bring this to light though because I'm pretty sure it's a serious problem throughout the country.
Swerb, as for your "evangelical" friend, he is without a doubt in the minority, especially amongst those who call themselves that. But I sort of agree with you in that you shouldn't go mowing down Christians because of the election - but you should mow them down because they think that politics and law should be run according to their particular brand of fairy tale. As I am already predisposed to my own brand of evangelism, I don't see the election changing much except my sense of urgency.
And it's time for today's required reading. This one is a quick election post-mortem including a fantastic quote by John Adams:
http://www.mcall.com/business/local/all-reeves11-7n
ov07,0,2209950.story?coll=all-businesslocal-hed
and this one is so shockingly frank that I can only applaud:
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2004/Novem
ber/07/edit/stories/03edit.htm
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By the way. Gold has gone up to a 16 year high since the election. I told you it was time to invest in gold and shotguns.
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The santacruzsentinal article is sweet as fuck. Swerb, see if you can have it re-printed in the GR Press.
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Sons of bitches....
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I remember reading that Johnny Hart was a dipshit religious nutjob. Something just the other day reminded me, in fact, but I can't remember what.
But hey, I'd rather those guys stick to the funny papers than to the op-ed columns. Even still, that's so blatant being that that comic strip's characters shouldn't even have any knowledge of the ACLU as it hasn't been invented yet, right? Yeah, that guy is a turd.
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I read the comics every day, and I didn't even realize BC was still around. Perhaps because it wasn't funny 15 years ago?
Not to get too off topic, but will there ever be a comic strip combo like the good old days, when The Far Side and Calvin & Hobbes could be found on the same page?
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I haven't read the comics regularly since Calvin & Hobbes and The Far Side ended (and to a lesser degree Bloom County).
B.C. was always crap. Grog should have left and had his own strip years ago!
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Calvin is the greatest comic that ever was, or shall be. When I pull out one of the old books, I am always amazed at how it stands head and shoulders above any comic strip you can find these days. If only Watterson wasn't such a self-righteous tool he might still be making them, but then they'd probably be old and tired too, so I guess we should be thankful for what we got.
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I agree regarding Calvin: The best comic strip... EVER.
Watterson is an interesting fellow for sure. He's never licensed his characters for any merchandise as far as I'm aware (he considered it "selling out" or "prostituting" his characters). You have to respect him for sticking to his guns -- He could have made a few million from that. And of course he stopped his strip while it was still good -- he didn't want it to go downhill creatively. As hard as it is to get a strip into so many newspapers, most people would have just had some work-for-hire churn out strips if they were tired of doing it themselves.
Such integrity! And over comics!
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The problem was it went beyond integrity and into preaching after a while. He also made a lot of demands on publishers about the size of his strips in the Sunday paper. Don't get me wrong - I loved the comic, but I thought he himself was a bit of a fuddy-duddy.
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You know, that self-righteousness still exists in comics-land: Berke Breathed re-launched a Sunday-only Opus strip last year. Being a huge Bloom County fan, I was stoked - but the Press wasn't picking it up. I approached my editor-in-chief (an intimidating guy, to say the least) and asked him why, and I guess Breathed demanded a half page (!) and exorbitant amounts of money. Yet, he won't publish his strip online because certain papers, the GR Press included, won't run it. I guess he doesn't want anybody to read the strip.
I agree that nothing will ever top Calvin and Hobbes... but there are a few strips nowadays that are terrific: Mutts is one of my favorites, and Get Fuzzy is hilarious. A few I read online cuz the Press doesn't carry them are Sherman's Lagoon (Sherman is a shark who regularly dines on humans), Pearls Before Swine and Monty, and one I just tripped over the other day that's pretty funny is Sheldon. Check 'em out if you have a minute:
www.comics.com
www.muttscomics.com
www.shermanslagoon.com
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The christianexodus site has to be a parody.
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It's totally serious man. I read about it a few weeks back but didn't know they had a site until today. Such a confusion of ideas...
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From the Christian Exodus site: "It is evident that the U.S. Constitution has been abandoned under our current federal system". Ummmm... yeah.
Perhaps it would be better if all the nutjobs moved to one state. Limit the number of electoral votes they could get.
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They don't have such a bad idea. Get them all in one place so they can all thump their bibles together. I agree with them, but they need to take it a step further. They need to go all the way back to their roots, back to persecuted pilgrims. They need to get some boats and get the fuck on OUT!
What is cracking me up is how these Crazy Christians see Christianity as a panacea for all the ills. They are please as punch that a true christain is in the white house. The fact that he is a proven, incompetent boob is over-looked - 'Its ok, he's a christain' like that makes it better. Now the only source of sanity - Powell is gone. God have mercy on our souls! :)
I get to be the lucky one and try to explain things to the Europeans over here. This is one difficult task.
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Thanks for pointing out, Snerb, and once again "nice job" to Pat for the letter. I have to give credit to the Press for printing it.
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Jesus, that was a whole lot of reading, but it was worth it. You guy's pretty much said everything I was feeling after the election and I really don't have much to add. I know Bert will be glad I went through and read this line of commentary.
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It's good to have the Roche back.
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Indeed!
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Unfucking-believable! We are surrounded by a sea of idiots.
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That diagram looks like something from The Onion.
And the Newsweek poll proves that we are, indeed, a minority in this country. But we always knew that the dumb outnumber the smart, right? 100 percent of John Serbas polled said atheists are likely the most ideologically oppressed minority in the country...
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That article is clearly written by a Bush Aplogist. It basically takes the stance that Bush won't do all kinds of horrible things and cites (poor) examples of his tolerance. But it misses the point badly: where Bush compromises, people like me find the compromise to be far too forgiving to the opposition (as in the example of Stem Cell research). No, she's just trying to frame the debate in a way that does not reflect reality.
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You know that sticker they wanted to put on the books in Georgia? The one that says that evolution is just a theory, not a fact? Well, apparently you don't need a sticker for a teacher to tell the class that very thing.
A co-worker of mine, she lives in St. Johns MI, has a son in the 8th grade. They just started evolution in school, and he was discussing it with her. Apparently the teacher prefaced the lecture by stating that evolution is just a theory, not a fact, and that there are alternative theories out there. Since I was not there I don't know what all was said.... but even just that is enough to make my blood boil.
If, someday, my son comes home and tells me his teacher told the class something like that.......
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I hear you, man. That's why I'm paying my dues to the NCSE early. :)
Remember at City, how Mr. Anderson taught us evolution without even a slight amount of hesitation? That's the way it ought to be.
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Finally, some good news. THAT is how I justify sending my money to Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.
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Damn you're right that was a great one. I didn't notice it as - believe it or not - I was busy almost all day that day. Thanks for pointing that one out, Pat.
What's funny is if all the evolution-doubters out there would just read this one blog for a couple months solid (and even try to debunk it if they so desire) I can't help but think that they'd succumb to the sheer volume of evidence that gets related through his postings.
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You would like to think that... but evidence, even an overwhelming amount of it, does not seem to phase evolution-doubters.
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Now not only do we know that prayer doesn't work, it's also dangerous!
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Yeah, and our gas prices don't seem to be getting any better, either...
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Quite a nice anti-Bush rant by Olbermann.
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Wow. That was awesome. Once again, Olbermann is my hero.
I particularly liked his calling Bush's idea of "freedom" as a brand name. Perfectly put.
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Radio host Kevin James gets a smackdown!
JB said it best... "Talkin' Loud, And Sayin' Nothin'"
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Hey Jack, Bush has nipples, I wonder if you could milk him?
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HA HA HA! The fun we have on Gears!
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I'm a Republican and I am ready for Bush to be out of office...
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I'm not sure if you can even qualify Bush as a republican?? At least not in the same vein as the Reagan Conservatives. He's almost more of a religious liberal. Some sort of bastard child of all the parts people hate about politics.
Did Bunky just say she was ready for Bush??
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Don't get all herny Nick Nick. We are all about the waxing on the West Coast.
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Wow, that Kevin James guy is a true buffoon. I can't believe people would listen to a radio show with a shrill turd like him on it.
Chris Matthews makes a really good point, one that I kind of thought of when Bush made those comments, but didn't fully develop: there's a difference between talking and appeasing.
It's truly ironic that that jackoff was saying that by talking to our enemies, we would be weakening our own country. Could anything be further from the truth?
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Yeah, Kevin James should go back to The King of Queens... at least he was funny on that show.
By the way, when's Hillary giving it up? Is she waiting for a large, 51st state to join the Union, where she can make a sweep of delegates, tying her with Obama? Do lawyers always have to be involved in the voting process now? Good Lord!
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Not to stir the pot on my first post, but I've heard a lot of Republicans
claiming 'Bush isn't even a Republican'. Nope, sorry, you voted for him,
you own him. If my dog shit on your lawn and I claimed "Don't blame
me, I thought my poodle would be a lab.", would that absolve my responsibility?
Hell no. You'd expect me to get my shovel. Well, your president
shit on my country. Let me know where to mail your shovel.
And shame on you for "flip-flopping" in your support of the
president. Sure, he's USDA Grade A Douche, but sticking to one's position
in the face of overwhelming common sense and decency is a pillar of the
Republican't party.
Too much? Was it 'douche' that put it over the top?
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Spider is here! Get this man an avatar!
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The entire existance of Jackassery is based on stirring the pot. Don't be ashamed Robotspider. Stir away.
As far as Bush Jr. goes. I didn't vote for him on either election. I sat in stunned silence the second time around as our stupid ass country voted him into office a second time around.
I guess my point was that he's not really a "conservative" when you look at his record.
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By the way, I wish I had heeded Bone's advice on this topic and invested in gold back in '04. Bone's some kind of Nostradamus! Let me know when it's safe to invest into POGs again!
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What are you saying? You didn't buy gold in 2004? Dude! The Bone knows!!! I am shitting on my gold toilet right now. I bought gold and oil futures... plus a few shotguns to keep people in-line as needed. You got to know, when an oilman becomes president it is only good for oil. If Gore got the nod, I was ready to invest in dolphins. I already got my plans to invest in either old people, whores, or slaves.... winner dependant.
So, the Bone Knows! You know the saying.... when the Bone talks, Bunky is looking at his crank.
So where did RobotSpider come from? I am not familar with him (Welcome by the way). Good entrance, guns a-poppin. So is your name a spin of Robot Chicken? This I know of.
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Welcome Robot! Way to make a subtle entrance. I like the way you unleashed the anal spiders on your first post!
Jack, my Dad invested in gold around then. I am now scared that he thinks like Bone.
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Fatty, for the record, I am not the one with the photo of Bone's crank in my wallet/money clip. There is no documentation to date of any Crank Spectating happenings between myself and the Bone's bone.
Robot is a friend of Swerb's and a fellow XBOX Live buddy. I like his balls out approach to JA. He will do well here....
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence... is that how it goes Ross? Because to me, right now... that just seems contradictory. 
Well, I hope Robo did not blow his wad early on JA. It has happened before with Crockett. He had a well placed jab, but kind of became preoccupied with boobies and saying strange things that pissed Bert off.
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I feel fairly confident that Robot will not post random boobs on the beach photos, as well as being able to handle himself with Ross.
Fatty, you are making me think too much....
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Mr. Spider heeded my urging over the weekend to join the JA fray... I can vouch for all his opinions on politics and religion, and he will definitely fit in with all the gaming-nerd chatter around here, which I find somewhat alienating, hence, why I'd like to invite Bunky into the corner to discuss the relevance of Iron Maiden.
And no, "discuss the relevance of Iron Maiden" is not a sexual euphemism. Who do you think I am, The Bone? Fuck the Bone!
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Spider mentioned you went camping over the weekend. I did ask what music you were listening to....
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Swerb, speaking of Iron Maiden, they are playing 2 shows next week at the Verizon Wireless Amphitheater (formerly Irvine Meadows) in Los Angeles.
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Hey Swerb, have you seen Heaven and Hell play live before? I was wondering if Ronnie will break out some Holy Diver....
South Park had an episode in the first few seasons where Dio played Holy Diver at a school dance.
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I haven't seen H&H yet (missed 'em both times they came around last year), but the live album they put out was strictly the Dio-with-Sabbath stuff. That's fine by me, since I've seen Dio solo a few times over the years... once with Yngwie Malmsteen as the opening act, which was the funniest (unintentional, of course) concert I've ever seen. If you ever get to see the documentary Metal: A Headbanger's Journey you'll see the inside of Dio's house, which is decorated with swords and big, gothic medieval furniture... all the shit you'd expect. Except for his collection of little porcelain froggies. No joke...
And I've never seen Maiden. WTF? My appreciation for them has grown significantly in the last few years. Could've seen 'em without Bruce Dickinson, which seemed like a big waste of time. I'm sure I'll get my Official Metal Dude membership card revoked with this admission... I'm bummed that they're not doing any midwest dates this summer. I'd surely go to Chicago or Detroit to see them.
Also, in social situations, I don't force my sane friends to listen to my music. Especially on camping trips, where we prefer peace and quiet (and want to throttle the guy in the trailer in the site next to us who runs his obnoxious generator for hours on end - douche).
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Hey Swerb, have you got your Iron Maiden Vans yet?
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I think if you're going to do it, then you better do it proper. No right thinking metal head would go with the low tops. Too gay-80's movie-please beat my ass. You gotta high top it all the way.
Too bad they put the logo on the soul. You know you have to color those in with magic marker.
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Really, no Fugly picture response?
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Sorry to dissapoint the fan club.
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Holy flurking schnit! I need those Eddie "Killers" hi-tops! They could be part of my suave on-the-town gear for the Metal Masters Tour!
Actually, this may push me even farther over the edge of metal nerddom...
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I actually saw these in the store. They are pretty sweet. I would have got a pair for my son, but they don't come in a small enough size. Maybe next summer.
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Ross said:
It's true: we are fucked. I am so depressed right now. I don't know what to do. I simply cannot believe I live in this country, or more specifically, that the country has gotten to this point. People have been completely lead by fearmongering and religious hatemongering masquerading as "values" -- ah fuck it, I've said it all before.
The US is going to have a hell of a time recovering from the damage that the next four years will bring. Mark my words.
Prophetic words from 2004. If there is a ray of light in the Bush administration it's that they fucked things up so completely on just about every measure that it enabled Obama to crush McCain. Now that Obama has been handed a turd he's got some pretty big issues to unfornicate. Off the top of my head:
1. Shore up the failing economy and begin to rebuild
2. Find a responsible exit strategy for Iraq
3. Shit or get off the pot in Afghanistan
4. Rebuild relations with Russia
5. Convince Iran and North Korea to chill out on their nuclear program
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So, reading back through this thread from four years ago, Bone, how are the military types you work with taking the election outcome? Are they as bad as that right wing zealot blog I posted yesterday?
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Not sure yet. I had the day off yesterday and today I was busy in class. No one made mention yet.
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I just got done looking at our retirement investment accounts. Sons of bitches! We've lost about 42% since Aug 08. We could have bought TWO brand new cars! Or knocked the fuck out of our house mortgage. Oh well. Like they say "the market always recovers." What the fuck kinda saying is that anyways? It might be 20 years, but it always recovers...
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I don't even look at my 401(k) statements. I'd rather not know. Still, we're young enough that we don't really need to monitor it at this point... unless you're going to retire at 45...
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I ventured to look at my stock portfolio last weekend. It took a beating like an ugly step-child too. I did find a grand sitting in cash that I was not aware of. So I bought up some more stock. One bank I bought was a bit risky. Its one I already own and its price very, very low. If it doesn't go under, I'll do real well. I am hoping that the government will keep that from happening. Also.... Electronic Arts. Video Games my man!! They are super cheap too. When times are tough, people play games. It is almost recession proof. BUT... the software industry is having some issues with development cost with new games. Stores only want to stock the 10 best sellers or so. New games are very expensive to develop. If they don't get shelf time, or a big ad campaign (expensive too) they don't sell.
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One solution to this problem of losing money in stocks due to the recession (really, let's call it what it really is, Depresion): Be poor. Then you're not losing any money. You're just sitting here waiting for everyone to come back and join you on planet Earth.
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I don't think there's a formal definition of depression (like there is for recession - 2 continuous quarters of negative GDP growth), but even so I don't think we're in one.
My 401(K) has taken a big hit too... I'd probably be more concerned if I didn't have other shit on my mind (working for a bank that might get nationalized, layoff concerns, selling my condo) but I've sustained similar losses to you guys. I reckon it will eventually rebound and I haven't stopped investing. But in the back of my mind, I realize that those who say that base it on only about 100 years of economic data for the United States, which isn't that great a sample. So things really could be different this time, and take a lot longer to rebound.
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I was listening to a recent 'American Life' show on the economy (That show frickin ROCKS! It is so well done). Anyway, they were talking about Keynesian Economics and how it was applied during the Great Depression. Pretty interesting stuff. There is still debate over if Keynesian theory works - big topic now because that is the route Obama is headed down. I got to thinking that our economy is fairly new. There have are tons of changes to how our economy operates in this century - major changes. Our view of the economy might be too small. The Great Depression was only 60-70 years ago. What we are experiencing now could still be after-effects of that depression.
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I think we're probably seeing the effects of the globalization of the economy. As much as we (or some people) would like to think of America as this island unaffected by the surrounding sea, that's not the case. I think if we continue to isolate ourselves from the rest of the world, the problem will only get worse. There are going to growing pains aplenty.
Of course, I could just be talking out of my ass as well.
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I agree about This American Life (although it always sounds like Ira Glass is sucking on a cough drop when he's talking and it drives me crazy). There was one episode, however, where I really got irritated by him especially - and it was just a bit too bleeding heart liberal for my tastes. It was a story about the Nigerian email scams, about these guys called Scam Baiters, who tend to scam the scammers in Africa, who are trying to bilk honest (but gullible) people out of thousands of dollars. Well, 'ol Ira thought it was just too much that the baiters would get the scammers to get put themselves in dangerous places and dangerous situations, even though they did so willingly out of their own greed. I was highly offended.
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Watch this video of Jon Stewart obliterating CNBC. Awesome.
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and 
