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Home Buying vs Renting
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Entered on: November 1, 2007 1:31 PM by Ross
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As we've discussed earlier, the housing market has just sat down on the pot, and is proceeding to empty its bowels. Over the course of the past year or two, I've been considering my options as far as moving. There's no rush for us yet - Logan is only a couple of months old and although our 2 bed/2 bath condo isn't huge, we can live there for a while without feeling too cramped as long as it's just the three of us. But we're going to want another kid in a couple of years, and a couple of years after that, we'll have to settle somewhere with a decent public school system.
Until now, our plan has more or less been save-save-save, with the intention of moving probably in Spring '09 to the suburb of our choice. At that time, I'd have enough saved that, combined with the equity in my condo I'd get back from its sale, I would have more than enough for a 20% down payment on a pretty nice place.
What bothered me about this plan was that I'd be sinking a very large portion of my savings into a new house, and then probably be using a large portion of my paycheck each month to pay the mortgage payments (to say nothing of the high property taxes that come with a good school system). How much left would there be to save and invest? Not much, especially if Heather stops working, which she has lately been lobbying heavily for.
The other thing that is troublesome about this plan is the state of the housing market. You can argue that if sales and prices are on the decline, that's a good time to buy. But considering just how bad this bubble is, it seems safe to say it could be many years before prices begin to rise again, and will probably decline in many places for some time. I'm just not sure I like the idea of using my home as my biggest investment. The whole "why waste money on rent" thing is a myth.
So the other day, I googled for rental properties in one of the burbs we've been considering, and was surprised to find that there are quite a few very nice homes available for rents below what I'd pay if I bought and paid a mortgage, property taxes, insurance, maintenance, etc. on it.
At the end of the day, even the real estate guys who tell you it's better to buy than rent, if they're honest, will tell you it's all about the appreciation of your house over time vs how that money you would have used on your house has appreciated. And from what I've read, the real estate types tend to really overestimate home gains over time (over time and after inflation your gain is typically right about zero) and definitely understate the appreciation of equities. I think this chart says it all, really:
If I took $150K that I'd use for a down payment on a house and instead invested that in an S&P500 index fund and assume (yes, it's an assumption, these things are not predictable but there is precedent here) 10% gain year-on-year, that makes me a millionaire in 20 years, without saving another dollar. I can't see a house doing that for you unless you get outrageously lucky.
So I'm going to keep running the numbers until I understand all this better, but for now, Heather and I are rather excited at the prospect of moving to wherever we want, letting Heather stay home with the kids for a few years, and still be able to have good control of our money.
I know a lot of you tend to disagree with my reasoning, so I'm eager to hear opposing viewpoints - I only caution that I'm not terribly amenable to arguments based on anecdotes. I think this is interesting stuff.
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NEWS 459 - 69 Comments
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Very interesting. By no means am I an expert on the subject, but that's a pretty damn strong argument. I'd be curious to see what Dave Ramsey would say about this. For your situation, it may be a smart move. But in my case, where saving a significant down payment (while paying off other debts) is fucking arduous, buying a house seemed like a smart investment option - at least it was three years ago, before the market started taking a shit.
My only hope is that upgrading the property we purchased will help, which was the original Swerb plan, and will mean we won't take a bath when we want to move to a nicer place. Considering the state of the market, if we break even after making some improvements, I'd be happy. Or maybe we just keep the old house and rent it out (which sounds like a pain in the ass, except that we live in a damn nice, quiet neighborhood, and my neighbor has little problem renting out the place next door, so it's an option). But you're in the same situation we're in: You bought your home pre-burst bubble, and want to sell it post-burst. Granted, locations are quite different - Chicago vs. Grand Rapids, where the economy is really sucking donkey sack - but will you, after considering the interest you've been paying on the mortgage and other money you've stuck into the place, still get something out of the investment? If you don't, I could see why you'd say the hell with buying a house.
What about this: What if you took the $150k you've socked away and moved somewhere where the property values aren't so astronomical? That kind of dough would put you halfway into a damn nice place in East Grand Rapids. Say you get the house paid off in 15 years instead of 30 - you'd have no house payment, save a good chunk of dough in interest and have a lot of liquid cash to invest and/or pay for the kids' college tuition out of pocket. Remember, a million bucks in 20 years might not be that big of a deal, considering inflation, and you'd still have rent to pay, which will go up, possibly at a higher rate than property values will increase... Of course, this scenario involves a lot of factors: Switching jobs and definitely taking a pay cut, the cultural downgrade of moving from Chicago to almost anywhere else... Now, this isn't a ploy to get my friends to move within a reasonable driving distance, ( ) but I wondered if you had considered crunching the numbers on that scenario.
I guess this is the ideal situation: Pay cash for your home. Don't go into debt for anything. Sounds like a great idea... as long as you don't mind parking your '87 Yugo outside your cardboard shack...
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This is a great topic! We could even get make a project out of this, possibly. I am thinking about putting a spreadsheet that would compare the senarios. Many. many things to consider. I have to write on my other computer. The last two posts I did got eaten up on my work computer and were lost! Swerb, more good points on your end too. But owning a house outright when you are retired is the best situation to be in, it is not a necessity. For retiree's on a low, fixed income, it makes sense. If you got the cash, then renting still works. I like your affordability angle. Too many Americans are trying to keep up with the Jones and are buying as much house as they can afford. This is a huge mistake! They are putting all their money into house payments and nothng into retirement. Ross, with your job, or especially your skills, you could work out of your home and travel to work when necessary (Which I think people need to do less than they think!). You could work from home in GR and go to the office a few times a month. Best of all worlds, big Chicago money and the GR housing market!
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Swerb said:
I guess this is the ideal situation: Pay cash for your home. Don't go into debt for anything. Sounds like a great idea... as long as you don't mind parking your '87 Yugo outside your cardboard shack...
You've hit upon my father's preferred solution: the reason he lives in a shack compared to what he could afford and typically drives shitty cars is that he pays for everything with cash. He loathes the idea of debt, and operating under that philosophy, he has managed to build a good deal of wealth. Now that he's older, he tends to buy nicer things but he's by no means extravagant. I personally don't want to go quite as far as he has with the frugality but I have learned some things: I am able to save at an incredible rate when I have no debt, and it's intoxicating. I really hate the idea of having to give it up.
What about this: What if you took the $150k you've socked away and
moved somewhere where the property values aren't so astronomical? That
kind of dough would put you halfway into a damn nice place in East
Grand Rapids.
Obviously, this would be my preferred solution. Problem is, where can I live where the schools are good (my primary consideration), I can still make Chicago Money (secondary consideration) and the houses are cheap (tertiary consideration)? I could be persuaded to swap considerations 2 and 3 and then many possibilities would open up, of course the other consideration is whether I can tolerate living there. EGR would be pretty good, really, but I don't know how good my career options in the GR area are - I'm sure they're nowhere near as good as in Chicago. TallPat can attest - he works in the same industry as I, and switched form Chicago to GR - actually couldn't even find a job in GR right away and commuted to Lansing every day for a couple years before finding a good gig in GR now. But I'm pretty sure he had to take a reasonably big pay cut.
Remember, a million bucks in 20 years might not be that big of
a deal, considering inflation, and you'd still have rent to pay, which
will go up, possibly at a higher rate than property values will
increase... Of course, this scenario involves a lot of factors
My point about the million bucks was that I would basically get that for free without saving another dime. That most certainly wouldn't be my plan.
As far as rents go, it seems pretty clear to me from reading the links I provided above that worrying about rent increases is pretty much a non-issue. Right now my main issue is if I can find a decent house to rent that will let me rent indefinitely and have two cats.
BigFatty said:
But owning a house outright when you are retired is the best situation
to be in, it is not a necessity. For retiree's on a low, fixed income,
it makes sense. If you got the cash, then renting still works.
Yeah - I would think that if you have enough cash (and I'm not talking about giant amounts, here), you'd rather be renting when you retire - it gives you incredible freedom to pick up and enjoy your life, unencumbered.
I think a lot of the problem is the whole cultural indoctrination that owning your house is really what you should strive for, that renting is "throwing away money." But what about throwing away money on interest and property taxes? As I said before, it all boils down to whether you can make more money from the equity in your house or using that money in the stock market. And it seems like the choice is pretty clear.
I am thinking about putting a spreadsheet that would compare the senarios. Many. many things to consider.
Before you do, just do a quick web search to see what others have come up with. This is a topic that has been rehashed to death. A lot of these calculators have been done by the real estate industry so it's in their interests to convince you to buy. But the better ones really break down the costs and show that it's really only worth buying if your house appreciates over the market average and you do worse than average investing in the stock market.
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Every personal finance book worth it's salt screams for people to reduce their debt. Most of the books that promise financial freedom have reducing debt as one of the first steps. Fatty's amazing ability to survive with minimal working time is solely based on my low debt structure. I did go out of character and ran up a larger student loan than necessary. Outside my house, my only debt is a $250 student loan payment. Not too shabby. If my plan worked, I would have sold my house and not worried about that payment. I certainly would have been on easier streets than I am on now if that happened. For me, renting is a no-brainer. Until you are certain you will be in a house for a very long time, you can get into it with minimal down payment, and the payment would be close to what rents would be - then why buy? For me, the freedom is much more valuable. Buying is not a stupid decision, it is just not the best investment desicion.
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My spreadsheet is 50% done. I did go out to the web and grabbed a part or two so I would not have to recreate it - the amortization table. But, my excel is kinda rusty and there are a few things I've wanted to try. The Amort. table learned me some tricks! But the main thng of doing it myself is I like the thinking process of the design. It is quite a complicated decision. No spreadsheet can really capture all that needs to be considered - well, for one senario maybe, but you cannot design one that will factor in all available options. Mine is not bad so far.....
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I can't wait to see it!
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Yeah, I agree that debt-free as you can get is the style. Interest just eats away at your purchasing and investment power. Ang & I have a mortgage and that's it for debt. I've had my Saturn since '94 (paid it off in 3 years) and haven't had a car payment since the 90's! In fact, Angie has never known me to have a different car! HA HA HA! I actually hope to be debt free at the store in the next year (that includes the building and all inventory!)... I'm real proud of that!
Vehicles are a killer for a lot of people. Most seem to buy into the notion that you must have a car payment (month after month, year after year, forever!). And new cars? Why spend 30K on a new car when it's value drops about 1/3 when you drive off the lot? Talk about tossing away money!
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As you guys have said, there are a lot of factors involved. One thing to think about:
The difference between investing your money in the stock market and in a house is all about leverage. When you buy a house, you are essentially borrowing money to invest. While you CAN do the same thing in the stock market, you can't do it to the same degree, and I would heavily advise against it.
Also, the interest rate on this leveraged investment is reduced dramatically by the tax-deductiblity. So you are borring money at 6% let's say, and if you make more than $128,500 (Married filing Jointly) then that is really 4.3%. If you clear over 195,850 it is only 3.96%
Now I'm sure you will counter with your BS house values don't appreciate. While I've seen your entire US stats, there are a couple of things to think about. First, the entire US stat is worthless. Your house in Chicago is being dragged down by a shack in po-dunk Arkansas. Your nice house in the near burbs is being dragged down by houses in Aurora and Lake in the Hills. Real Estate is all about Location, and if you throw that out the window the results will be ugly.
Also, look at the chart again. For 10 years the NY MSA and the markets trend. The Stock Markets between 95 and 01 are nuts. You can't project that out for the next 30 years.
Of course, there are a lot of expenses that go with a house as well. For me personally, the ownership itself has value. I can make it my own. I can choose to make improvements, change structures, etc. When your kids are 5 years old do you really want to move because the landlord decided to sell the property out from under you?
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Eric said:
As you guys have said, there are a lot of factors involved. One thing to think about:
Sounds like a few things but okay...
The difference between investing your money in the stock market and in a house is all about leverage. When you buy a house, you are essentially borrowing money to invest. While you CAN do the same thing in the stock market, you can't do it to the same degree, and I would heavily advise against it.
This seems like a non-sequitir to me. Who says I want a leveraged investment? Haven't I been saying I don't want one? My whole point is that the housing market is too volatile for borrowing against potential gains in the market to be worth it. Borrowing in this market, it seems to me, just increases your risk of loss.
Also, the interest rate on this leveraged investment is reduced dramatically by the tax-deductiblity. So you are borring money at 6% let's say, and if you make more than $128,500 (Married filing Jointly) then that is really 4.3%. If you clear over 195,850 it is only 3.96%
I still say the people who claim "tax deduction! tax deduction!" are really overblowing things. For one thing, living in an area with high property taxes can easily overcome the tax deduction. Also, let's not forget that non-homeowners still can claim the standard deduction. For Heather and I, this would compensate for our mortgage interest deductions on our current loan, though it wouldn't on a more expensive place, I'll grant you. Just saying that it's not so very cut-and-dried.
Now I'm sure you will counter with your BS house values don't appreciate. While I've seen your entire US stats, there are a couple of things to think about. First, the entire US stat is worthless. Your house in Chicago is being dragged down by a shack in po-dunk Arkansas. Your nice house in the near burbs is being dragged down by houses in Aurora and Lake in the Hills. Real Estate is all about Location, and if you throw that out the window the results will be ugly.
Fair enough. I would really like to see numbers for various metropolitan areas near here. I'm hoping that this site can help shed some numbers on the matter but I haven't tried to figure it out yet. Still, I think it's safe to assume that in the near term, things aren't going to be appreciating much if at all in any neighboring areas. Borrowing in this climate just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Also, look at the chart again. For 10 years the NY MSA and the markets trend. The Stock Markets between 95 and 01 are nuts. You can't project that out for the next 30 years.
Granted - but it doesn't matter. The graph won't look so lopsided, but stocks will clearly win over time. This has been pretty soundly demonstrated and I'll leave it to the reader to do the appropriate web searches.
Of course, there are a lot of expenses that go with a house as well. For me personally, the ownership itself has value. I can make it my own. I can choose to make improvements, change structures, etc. When your kids are 5 years old do you really want to move because the landlord decided to sell the property out from under you?
Hey, I'm not claiming it's an ideal situation! Of course I'd prefer to be able to re-wire my house as I've done here, or paint at a whim, etc. It's all about tradeoffs. I don't have my mind made up yet, I'm just exploring the options. For all I know, I wouldn't really be able to even find a rental property that suits my needs.
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So you've done a masterful job of picking apart individual aspects w/o considering the entire argument. :)
First, I am suggesting that your house will appreciate (faster than inflation) if you buy in the right place, just as buying one stock (Microsoft) had a much better return than others (Covad). If you accept this (which I suppose you don't) than you do want the investment to be leveraged.
I know you don't love anecdotal evidence, but in the case of the home I live in now, it has appreciated 81% in the last 10 years, while the S&P has appreciated 23%. Add to this the house is a leveraged investment while the S&P usually isn't, and that is a HUGE difference. I realize this is anecdotal, but remember, you will buy ONE house, not a meto area, the entire US or any other subset you are using to compare.
If we do accept that my above argument is wrong, there are a couple of other things to consider.
First, as you mentioned it may be impossible to find the house that you want for rent. While it is hard to know for sure, I'm fairly certain that none of the houses in our subdivision are rented. And if you DO find one for rent, you are betting that you are smarter than the owners, because you are making the bet that the rental costs they are charging you are less than the mortgage, maintenance, taxes, etc. minus appreciation.
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I think your argument about appreciation is working against you. First, consider what you said about the historical gains in stocks over the past 10 years. Surely this should be shouted from the treetops when considering the housing market. The recent big gains are decidedly not their overall trend, and were clearly artificial (ie not tied to any fundamentals) - and have nowhere to go but down.
I agree that location is key and I'm by no means saying that it's impossible to make money on your house. I just happen to think that currently it's a riskier investment option than some of the alternatives, especially if you're counting appreciation in your house beating the interest rate on your loan. That alone doesn't even make me want to shy away from buying - the two key factors for me are 1) if I buy anytime soon the property is likely to lose value almost immediately and take quite a while to regain it and 2) I'd be devoting too much of my money toward this one investment for my own comfort.
I find the argument about betting that I'm smarter than the owners to be hilarious. If you find it impossible to believe that I am, in fact, smarter than the owners, how about the alternative hypothesis that they're victims of circumstance? In other words, timing for me was fortuitous, and poor for them?
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Uh oh.... I am about to go up against Eric..... Go easy on me my friend! Your investment stats on your house's appreciation and your S&P return, don't jibe with me. First of all, your home's 81% appreciation over 10 years is not really sweet. According to the 'Rule of 7' an asset will double in value in 10 years with 7% compounded interest. This tells me your house appreciated just under 7% (still not bad for a house). Your S&P appreciation of 23%.... where did that come from (typo I hope)??? I did a quick calculation off of share price and I got 63%. But this is straight share price appreciation and ignores dividend reinvestment - the key and power of investing. If you invested $10,000 in Vanguard's S&P fund in Nov. 1997, you would have just under $20000 today. That is almost 100%. But, I am sure you are going to agrue leveraging here.... You only invested a small fraction of your house's value - so your real return is much greater than the 81%. I don't know, I would be interested if you and Ross figured out your real returns if you sold your houses today, subtracting all expenses - especially interest and property taxes!
Plus........ Most amature landlords are looking at long term appreciation and someone else making their payment. In reality, the majority of these amatures lose some money because they cannot fully capture all costs and remain competitive in the rental market. I am talking about single family home rentals. The ones that make money do so in rising property markets where they take advantage of fast rising equity.
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Sorry for my lack of spacing - my work computer only supports M$ Explorer and I don't think that works with the JA site as well as FireFox! I always get problems when I use this computer on JA.
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Wow, I'm double teamed. I'm going home.
S&P Stats are here: http://finance.google.com/finance?cid=626307 Now of course it is all over the place depending on the year.
1 Yr: 10%
5 Yr: 67%
10 Yr: 23% (Although in point of fact, it APPEARS its 10 year calc only goes back to 01, which is odd.
Ross, should you buy a depreciating asset? No. This applies to the S&P, a House, or Gold. If you think an asset is going to be cheaper next year than it is today, don't buy it. It may very will make sense for you to rent for the next 2-3 years instead of buying. That doesn't mean you should never buy a house.
It is possible to make money on your house. It is possible to lose money in the market. In the last 10 years in a certain town, the results will be dramatically different than 30 years in a different town.
Also, there is a difference between a house being a bad investment (loses money) and not the most high performing investment. You can choose (to a certain degree) how much you want to invest in your house, and how much you want to borrow. With the steep (and they are steep as you make more $$ and have a bigger mortgage) tax incentives given to home owners, you can buy the house, and then invest the rest of your money in the market.
Personally, I'm not counting on my house for retirement. I'm not even factoring it into the equation significantly. My retirement plans are mostly made of (at this point) of equity investments in the stock market. The house does provide excellent diversification. If we go into a 20 year period of a flat stock market (it HAS happened), at the end I'll have an asset that I can at least live in for minimal ongoing cost, while the stock market investment will be worth less (after inflation). According to Yahoo Finance, S&P 500 rose form 103.1 in Dec of 69 to a whopping 163 in Jan of 85. Past performance is just that, the past. It can inform our current decisions, but is in no way a guarantee that the time period YOU are investing will conform to the average of any given period.
Point is, nothing is a sure thing. Investing in your house is heavily subsidised by the government, still allows you to invest heavily in equities, and at the end of the day provides you with security (a place to live). To me, it makes sense.
That doesn't translate to suggesting that Ross should go buy a house tomorrow.
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Yeah, the Google data on the S&P 500 is lacking for some reason. Yahoo has more data, but won't tell you the returns. Wikipedia is actually pretty good:
| Year |
Return |
| 1994 |
1.32 |
| 1995 |
37.58 |
| 1996 |
22.96 |
| 1997 |
33.36 |
| 1998 |
28.58 |
| 1999 |
21.04 |
| 2000 |
-9.11 |
| 2001 |
-11.89 |
| 2002 |
-22.10 |
| 2003 |
28.68 |
| 2004 |
10.88 |
| 2005 |
4.91 |
| 2006 |
15.80 |
In any case, I don't think Eric and I are really saying vastly different things. I think that most of my trepidation in buying is due to a) the bursting housing bubble, b) my timeframe for moving, and c) the fact that I am probably going to be forced to borrow more (60-80% of the purchase price) than I would like to, to live in a place that I find acceptable.
I'm certainly not counting on a house for retirement, either. It would be nice to have a house bought and paid for by the time I retire, but on the other hand, it would also be nice to have those assets be more liquid so I could pick up and enjoy myself more easily.
So yeah, I get the point that past performance isn't a guarantee of future performance. But does that mean that historical trends are worthless? Hell no! The S&P has averaged over 11% over its lifetime, and that is a significant piece of information, especially if you intend to hang onto your investments for the long term. Although I don't expect a house to appreciate at that rate, you're right, it doesn't mean it's not worth buying. But the timing being what it is, I'm very cautious right now.
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I may not win this argument, but I'll bet that within 3 years Ross will be a homeowner.
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Shit ninja! I bet he's already one!
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It's true - I am a home (condo) owner, and it's kind of annoying thinking about selling in this market anytime soon...
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Now that you have a child. You could sell your first born and that should help out the market value of your condo.
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Well, after reading this blog entry from Millionaire Mommy Next Door, I found this nifty rent vs buy calculator. I've used a couple similar ones in the past, but this one is the most comprehensive I've yet found. So according to numbers run off the top of my head, it looks like, depending on what rents I can find, I could be better off buying after a few years. It really depends on the rent though.
I don't know what realistic rents are, so on the high end of rents I was considering, I would break even after about 6 years if I bought instead.
On the low end (to be fair, I'm guessing too low), I wouldn't break even after 30 years. So without getting too in-depth yet, I am not yet ready to say that I won't buy when I eventually move to the burbs. However, I may leave my current place in the next year or so and rent a condo or townhouse elsewhere in the city until we need to move once Logan is old enough to need schooling.
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I don't know Ross, what are you calculating for expenses? If you stay in a house the full 30 years, expect these costs (Number of times inside of 30 years) The cost is for 1 time:
- Roof (1) - $10,000-$20,000
- Furnace (1-2)- $4,000
- Kitchen Appliances (2-3) - $1,500-$2,000
- A/C (1-2) - $2,000-$3,000
- Hot Water Heater (2-3) - $700-$1,000
- Washer/Dryer (1-2) - $1,000
- Room Remodel (2-3) - $10,000
- Misc expenses (30) - $1,000
Plus... Are you going to do outside work or pay for it.. Your time is worth something if you do it yourself... think 1-2 hours a week, pay yourself what $25/ hour (Its cheaper than a service!) and it adds up too.
This list is somewhat conservative and only estimates. You may not do 3 remodels... but 1 every 10 years is not unrealistic. My calculator takes your estimates and breaks it down monthly. For the bare minimums on this list (not including yard work or service) it comes to $200 a month. I still think that is super-low. My estimate was $400 a month. Shit, roofs, windows, garage doors, are expensive! You got to include them in your estimate. The problem I would like to show in my calculator is what happens if you get a 30 year mortgage, but sell in 10 years? Most people don't stay the entire 30!
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Well, yes, you have to factor in repairs - I don't know, $400/month sounds high to me, but 200 could be reasonable. In any case, if you assume that you don't have any of these expenses renting, you're also assuming that your rental place never really gets substantially upgraded beyond basic maintenance. So to an extent, a certain amount of renovation is a bonus you get for owning your house, even though it's money out of your pocket (this was one of Eric's points that I definitely agree with).
Still Fatty, I want to see your uber-spreadsheet when you get it done.
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Shit, Ninjas!! I fell off my uber-spreadsheet project some time back. I fell into it today when I needed a quick amortization chart (who doesn't need that from time to time!) Well, I quickly finished it up adding in a comparison of when you want to sell in the middle of your loan term.
It is a pretty good first effort. This is the Beta Verison and would need your input and testing. It pretty much compares the true cost of owning vs renting and investing. Of course there are a ton of variables you get to plug in... but it is not too bad, really.
So, here it is.. Fatty's Fantastic Financial Uber Mortgage Rent Vs Buy Comparison Calculator!
http://www.jackassery.com/~bigfatty/Misc/FBoA.xls
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How 'bout some help Ross. The link tool is not working to well. The whole editor is not working as well as it first did. I don't get the editor on the edit pages anymore on IE...
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Don't know the specifics of your problem (first, stop using IE), but I believe this problem can be worked around by not naming your files with spaces in them.
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Ok... I will do the rename. My home computer is on the fritz and IE is my onlu answer on my work computer. We are a Microsoft Partner. There would be some serious frowning with me using a Non-M$ application to replace IE.
Anywho.... if you want to play with it, let me know and I will do the rename. If everyone is Meh.... well then F the JA!
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Meh!
Who gives a shit if you're a Microsoft parnter? They clearly have an inferior product and it's not like the browser wars are running hot and heavy these days. Get over it and install Firefox.
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Ok, I trust everyone's judgement here, especially on tech issues, but what makes Firefox better. I know most of you guys use it and I'll probably switch over on my home computer soon, but I'm just curious what some examples are of things that are better about Firefox.
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Ok mister big talk.... I have Firefox at home, but just not on my work computer. I've tried it already, trust me. It just doesn't jive with all the other M$ apps I use for work.
Why don't you join a better bank!  BoA Can suck my Balls!!!!
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First and foremost, it is much less susceptible to viruses and other dirty tricks. This may not be due to superior security per se, but due to the fact that its market share is lower and hackers target the browser with the best chance of their exploits hitting a target. And for those who frequent the less-than-reputable places on the interwebs - not gonna mention any names here - Firefox is a necessity.
Next, and personally my favorite, it supports a large extension base that can let you do all manner of cool things. I have extensions for giving me weather updates, block advertisements, automatically upload photos to Flickr, and various other work-related things like checking on the status of software builds or help me circumvent the workplace's internet proxy rules. The possibilities are endless.
Also has supported tabbed browsing since its inception - looks like IE finally caught up so that's a wash nowadays I guess. Basically, Firefox is usually at or near the bleeding edge of the internet, and Microsoft is always playing catchup, usually years behind.
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Dude, IE is what we support at B of A as well - I just have the balls that you lack, and I have also installed Firefox on my machines. I use both - if it's a work-related intranet site, I'll stick to IE (another fancy plugin allows me to right-click a link in Firefox and tell it to open the page in IE instead) but for stuff like JA, I will use the best.
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BigFatty said:
Why don't you join a better bank!  BoA Can suck my Balls!!!!
HA HA HA HA HA!
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Bunky said:
BigFatty said:
Why don't you join a better bank! BoA Can suck my Balls!!!!
HA HA HA HA HA!
I don't even get it. Seems to me I'm at a pretty sweet bank, where I can install the software of my choice...
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Nothing personal against you or BOA. I just found it amusing that Fatty threw out a "suck my balls" when you were going back and forth with your tech talk.
I was also entertained by your "who gives a shit if you are a microsoft partner" comment as well.
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See. Downloading the whole Firefox browser seems to be the answer. That is, of course, the business you work for has Massive firewall that forbids you from downloading anything other than an image.
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I don't like BoA from being a previous customer. I am sure they are just like all of the big banks - sucky.. and will charge you a fee because your mama farted on a Friday. They wanted to charge me a account closing fee one time because I wanted to close my account. This seemed like the most recockulous charge of all time. So, if I am not happy with the service, or find a bank that is better than yours, you will try and F me one more time and charge me $5 to close my account. FUCK YOU! It is not the measly $5, it is the principle. You can be a terrible bank, make me want to leave and then charge me $5 for the privilege to leave. I did ask the bank teller WTF!!!! He told me it was to cover the expense of closing the account. Hey BoA.... cover your own expenses! Poor you.... Is it expensive being a bank?? Awwwww, too bad banks are always making record profits (except this year when the greedy fucks fucked themselves by lending out money to any crack whore).
SO, I left BoA with an open account with $5 in it. But I later returned to a teller that did not know shit and got my $5 back. Again it was the principal.
Years later, my girlfriend had BoA and they frickin charged her with over $500 in overdraft fees. Yes, she had some problems with her account and should be penalized. But keeping the account open to continue to rack up fees without a speedy notification is just plain negligent. They could have locked her account until she made things right... but no.. they kept track of every attempt of access, tallying up the fees - yet not giving any money out. It was not a daily fee, which makes sense... but it was per transaction, with no limit. The poor girl was trying to get money out of her account at ATMs without knowing she was overdrawn. Each time she tried, BOOM! $50 charged. Don't get me started on BoA. Did I mention they can SUCK MY BALLS - Greedy SumBitches...
Yes - FireFox is way better than IE. If you are not using it at home for your personal use.... you are both a complete idiot and an asshole.
Ross, I will go with the dual browser system on my work laptop. Good suggestion.
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Here is the new link to the tool.
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Fuck it.... I don't care if any of you see my tool now!! I cannot even delete my old posts!!
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I'll be damned... I was about to call you retarded, but you're right - I can't delete comments in IE either. Oh well, I'll take a look at it sometime when I get a chance. I haven't used IE with this site in so long, no wonder there are issues.
Also, is it only me or are Bunky and NickNick's avatars way bigger than everyone else's (and not colored properly) in IE?
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I don't see anything wrong with the bloated, walrus-like, heart-attack-red avatar that I have.
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I just chalked it up to the two of them being larger than life. Plus, I like the big Bunky Bobble-Head. It made it nicer for me to print decent copies off for my shrine.
Dude - when is Swerb gonna put his new head into action??? I saw him peeking around in here. We want to see his new head!!
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Fatty - Amen to your anti-bank rant!
I recently had an issue at 5/3 who we direct deposit and pay the mortgage with. You know how it is, every so often you get an extra pay period in there. Anyways, I went online and manually applied it to the mortgage balance. Well, I got a little overzillous and left my self short for an autopay. So I got charged $33 overdraft to cover a $10 autopay. And they were nice enough to call me after this happened. After I went down in person and raised some hell they were nice enough to take it off.
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While I am somewhat new to JA, it does appear Fatty has a lot of girlfriends in his past? Am I wrong to make this assumption?
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No. Fatty has gone through girlfriends like most of us go through socks.
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Second to Bone in Beeyotches! I got married at 35, That left many years with me in the game. Hardly up to the Bone Standard, I do got some Herstory.
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I wonder if Fatty is still obsessed with Rad's sister??
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Dude - your cousin is HOT!!! I love me some Rad sister! She is one of the super-coolest people I know. Plus, she is the cute little girl who is nice to look at.... except the uncanny Rad resemblance. Yes, you certainly see the family thing going on there. I don't like to think that you could swap heads and hairdos and have the same person again. Good thing Rad is putting on some much needed Man-weight to distance him from his lovely, petite sister.
Dude, next time you talk to your cousin... tell her I said Hi and tell her she is SWEET! (as in super-cool)
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I HATE my bobble-sized avatar! It's makes me feel more like an avatard! I sent Zilla a new on to pass on awhile back with my hair down, but he refused because he liked the poofy hair thing.
Oh no Fatty, say it ain't so.... I don't want to think of you having your crank yanked by the brand of the redneck stank...
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Well Bunky, in Firefox you're normal sized. Nonetheless, I will make an attempt to fix it next time I get the chance. I honestly can't think of the last time I actually fired up IE on one of my home computers...
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Wow! It does look goofy in IE! HA HA HA!
Why isn't everyone using Firefox again?
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Why aren't you on Live right now?
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I'm in bed sleeping. Shhhhh!
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I hope you put a net on that fro' so you don't have pillow head in the morning...
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My biggest issue with my bank, LaSalle (now owned by BoA, of course): Once, I overdrew my account accidentally, because I made a payment out of my personal checking instead of our joint account. Well, I go four days, using my debit card, getting charged $28 every transaction, and the only way they notify me about the overdraft? SNAIL MAIL.
It's the 21st century, I do all my banking online, they can smack me with a fee in a heartbeat, but the only way they can notify you of an overdraft is via the most arcane method of communication available (save for carrier pigeon). No phone call, no e-mail. It's a total fucking scam.
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That is exactly what happened to the ex-girlfriend (Bunky is jealous when I talk about my ex's). She racked up close to $500 in fees before she got the letter. I was able to talk to her branch manager and reduced it down to a more reasonable fee. The thing that really bugs me is, this type of fee normally hits Joe and Jill Blue Collar America. They are living check to check and BOOM a small oversight on their part puts them hundreds of dollars in debt. And if they put money in the bank that morning to cover things..... Well, sorry! Yes you did make a CASH deposit that morning, but they way the bank processes payments, we process the debits firsts, so this is when your account was overdrawn, then tack on all the fees you get for each and every transaction you've made. Oh you made the bank deposit first, then went shopping with your debit card.....ooooh thats gonna hurt. So, after all the fees are tacked on, then we will process your deposits! Yes, you deposited your weekly pay, in CASH... minus fees.. Hmmmm all your money is gone again and you still owe us $200 for having your account overdrawn. Thanks for playing!
Oh, if you keep a minimum balance of $10,000 you will qualify for our premium interest rate - now 0.02% APR! FUCK BANKS - I hate them. But we have no other choice. Credit Unions have become banks now. I think they have all been bought by banks.
One more story on why I started hating banks..... When I was a frickin 16 kid, Old Kent suckered me into having a Premium Checking account, because it was free and I got free checks, and some other bullshit benefits... just keep a minimum of $1500. Well, I saw the free part and was happy. What they did not really emphasize was, once I dropped below $1500, they charged me $20. That is a lot of money for a 16 year old.... and it was 20 years ago!! Well, three months later, Fatty wised up and decided to never be raped by banks again.
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Oooooooh - just thinking about that fee situation is still pissing me off. The bank would actually charge the fee to the empty account and since it was empty, it would spurn another fee the next day. Bitches, you know it is empty! Why are you trying to take money out for your fee!!! Oh, to get another fee... clever. Its like they are printing their own money. Fuck them! Send me a frickin bill for the fees. How do you expect me to pay them right way with no cash.
Thats right - BoA, Old Kent, Fifth Third, Chase..... FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM HARD!
I hate fucking banks.
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Fatty, you still seem a little CRANKy today.... Do you need to take a little "me" time so we can have the old Fatty back?
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Don't have any material.... Lost Bone's photo a long time ago
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I am sure he or Bells can send you another one quickly over email....
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Thanks... I've found more entertaining things. Your Booble Head (TM) has been printed, cut out, then carefully pasted. You now have a starting role in 'Meat Puppet Theater'.
After the shows, you and I normally have nice conversations... unless you are mad at me that day. Sometimes you are a drama queen!
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I am drama free Fatty! I just try to smile and look pretty for you with out the sass!
I feel better now. You seem to be evolving back to the old Fatty that makes the ladies hernie......
CRANKy Fats is kind of a mood spoiler...
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BigFatty said:
Thats right - BoA, Old Kent, Fifth Third, Chase..... FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM HARD!
I hate fucking banks.
Amen.
Next topic: Mortgage companies... FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM
FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM
FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM FUCK EM...
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Ross said:
I'll be damned... I was about to call you retarded, but you're right - I can't delete comments in IE either. Oh well, I'll take a look at it sometime when I get a chance. I haven't used IE with this site in so long, no wonder there are issues.
Also, is it only me or are Bunky and NickNick's avatars way bigger than everyone else's (and not colored properly) in IE?
Okay, I have just deployed a new release of Jackassery that (hopefully) fixes a few isses for you (inferior) IE users. You should be able to delete your own comments now, and the Bunky/NickNick avatars should be more on par size-wise with the rest of them. Let me know if there are issues.
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C'mon Ross, you don't even tell us what version we are running now. How fun is that?? This seems to be a major overall, so what... is this JA 4.1 now?
Sniff....Sniff - this fix does come at a cost. My beautiful Bunky's Bobble Head(TM) is no longer shown to me in its full screen granduer. On the other hand... NickNick's mug no longer makes the neighbor's dog howl.
I'll take it for a spin, kick the tires, and do some serious End User Testing. If all goes well, you just might be recommended to the Board for a raise. Until then, take an extra 15 minutes for lunch today.
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No, these are just minor bug fixes as far as I'm concerned. I haven't done a "major" release since probably October when I added that "Recent Visitors" box on the main page. Yeah, it's too bad I don't properly version things. Then again, it would be crazy since I've deployed fixes probably on average every month or so for almost 5 years now. At least I use source code management software that will let me keep track of the changes over time.
Anyway, I fixed the editor not showing up on the "edit comment" page. Looked like I had accidentally pasted a youtube link into the middle of some code - weird that Firefox didn't care but IE did.
I also have noticed that the linking doesn't work on this page in IE, but what's weird is that it does work on the edit comment page! I screwed around for 10 minutes or so trying to figure this one out, but it doesn't want to reveal its secrets.
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Ross - thanks for all the fixes...
I monkeyed around with how to get my Mortgage tool to be accessed. For whatever reason it is not easy as the other files I uploaded.
So, if you want to save it on you computer, right click on this link:
http://www.jackassery.com/~bigfatty/Misc/FBoA.xls
Click on Save Target As, save on your computer, then when you open it, open it in Excel. Not too difficult, but not easy as it should be.
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Damn Fatty, that's an impressive spreadsheet. I'm going to have to go over it for a while and get back to you.
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Hey Mr. Johnstains, JA dose not seem to be optimized for Chrome?
Its all wide looking
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Interesting. Well, I dunno when I'm going to have time to fix that, but I'll do what I can...
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